POKERadical

Jason's Poker Blog

  1. 2008-01-14 09:19:37

    Breaking News About

    Check it out - we made the news!

    removed busted link to first article :(

    Wow. Not only is most of the information wrong, it's ridiculous:

    • "weekly tournament" - sorry, we played 3-4 times a week
    • The Meetup website was 'used to lure unwitting' participants to the tournaments" - the rules and procedures were clear

    Second Article

    Pretty much the same as the first.

    Posted by Jason M at 2008-01-14 09:19:37

Comments on “Breaking News About ”

    • anonymous
    • Just posted on one of Jason's other blogs.... newspaper coverage is good, if they're on your side, but you guys need to get TV coverage. Go on camera if you're willing, or asked to be "blacked out", but TV coverage of this stupid bust will help your cause. Good luck.

    • anonymous
    • Wow...insane!

    • avatar for Jason M
    • Thanks for the info, Alan. I think that reflects the sentiments of most at this point :/

    • anonymous
    • A friend of mine who has a law degree shared this with me:

      "I never practiced in criminal courts on a regular basis. A couple of appearances, but not enough to be knowledgeable about how prosecutors and police make decisions. I have edited several criminal law books, but that's not the same. So my thoughts don't come from a storehouse of experience.
      Anyway, so far this feels political to me. It obviously wasn't a fluke – the police had been watching the games for a while, and probably consulted with the District Attorney before moving. However, (1) it doesn't seem like something that should be criminal (I didn't read the statute carefully), and (2) it seems like it is relatively minor. So why did they work so hard to go after this? I don't know, and I think that it will be interesting to see what happens."

    • anonymous
    • Cool...I think you gotta use http://www.pokerplayersalliance.org though (take out the 's' in https://)

      I noticed that they have posted the Sheriff's press release on the site.

    • anonymous
    • Check out the last part!

      California Home Poker... Legal?
      By Lennie Augustine

      NOTE FROM MARC WORTMAN: In our Home Poker and the Law section, we have set up the legality of home gambling in the state of California as we understand it from statutes contained in that state's criminal code. Below, California lawyer Lennie Augustine puts forth much more work and insight than we did to question what exactly is contained in the word of the law. Note that this is an opinion column and not a legal analysis. We're probing the issue... not answering it. You gamble at home at your own risk.

      I don't know if I consider myself to have a "strong legal knowledge of California state law," but here goes:

      We know that Section 19801(j) of Chapter 5 says that:

      "(j) In order to effectuate state policy as declared herein, it is necessary that gambling establishments, activities, and equipment be licensed, that persons participating in those activities be licensed or registered, that certain transactions, events, and processes involving gambling establishments and owners of gambling establishments be subject to prior approval or permission, that unsuitable persons not be permitted to associate with gambling activities or gambling establishments, and that gambling activities take place only in suitable locations. Any license or permit issued, or other approval granted pursuant to this chapter, is declared to be a revocable privilege, and no holder acquires any vested right therein or thereunder."
      So a casual read seems to imply that all gambling, including home poker games, has to be licensed. But wait - let's examine further what "gambling" means.
      Section 19805(j) of Chapter 5 gives the definition of "gambling":

      "(j) "Gambling" means to deal, operate, carry on, conduct, maintain, or expose for play any controlled game."
      OK, that's all fine and dandy - but what is a "controlled game"? Section 19805(e) defines a "controlled game":
      "(e) "Controlled game" means any controlled game, as defined by subdivision (e) of Section 337j of the Penal Code."
      OK, then what is a "controlled game, as defined by subdivision (e) of Section 337j of the Penal Code"? Subdivision (e) of Section 337j of the Penal Code says:

      "(1) As used in this section, "controlled game" means any game of chance, including any gambling device, played for currency, check, credit, or any other thing of value that is not prohibited and made unlawful by statute or local ordinance.

      (2) As used in this section, "controlled game" does not include any of the following:
      (A) The game of bingo conducted pursuant to Section 326.5.
      (B) Parimutuel racing on horse races regulated by the California Horse Racing Board.
      © Any lottery game conducted by the California State Lottery.
      (D) Games played with cards in private homes or residences, in which no person makes money for operating the game, except as a player."

      Voila! 337j(2)(D) says that home games without a profit motive for the operator are not "controlled games!" Therefore, they are not a "gambling" activity under Chapter 5; therefore they are not subject to Chapter 5's licensing and other requirements.
      Now I can't swear that that means that home poker games are completely legal - who knows, maybe somewhere else in the Code, they are banned. But I have a strong inclination that that means that home poker games are not illegal in California.

    • anonymous
    • As Posted in the SJM

      Folks, not only did the San Mateo Sheriff's Dept consider this to be a "good bust", they considered it to be important enough to engage the power of the DOJ

      The group was infiltrated by "under covers", who obviously, observed and participated in the events enough to "know" that the "stakes" were low and this was not a criminal pack of thugs, well armed, with prostitutes and drug abound.

      The laws are vague (one has to tread lightly as to NOT be in violation of gambling laws) and they should be challenged, the "spirit of the law" should be challenged. I feel that the popularity of home games will place a LARGE number of otherwise law abiding citizens into the ranks of common criminals.

      I certainly hope the City of San Mateo is ready for the influx of NATIONAL and WORLD news. I see a Supreme Court case in the future, if the District Attorney's office brings forth this case, it will be a "President Setting" case which will take years to litigate and endless amount of monetary resources for the City of San Mateo.

      There are thousands of hard working folks out there who host poker games and thousands more who come to play. The home settings are not filled with criminal elements, (have many close friends who participate) go check out the meetup.com group that have been arrested, what a mix of criminals.

      I personally do not play poker or gamble, I will however, personally stand up for YOUR RIGHT to Assemble, and YOUR RIGHT to Pursuit of Happiness. That pursuit of happiness includes the right to increase your prosperity.

      Way to go City of San Mateo, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ all the way to the Supreme Court
      Get names of ALL officials involved in this absurd waste of money and VOTE, write letters, demand accountability fellow citizens, this is OUR DEMOCRACY, OUR City Officials or NOT...

      *
      Posted by: A Real Crime Fighter; VOTE

    • anonymous
    • Muscatel - some valid points if you are following the letter of the law (which isn't a bad thing). Can you share your opinion of the "spirit of the law" for us, and elaborate on whether you think that can carry any weight with a judge?

      These people are obviously concerned about their friends and attamant about the fact that they don't feel like victims or did anything "unwittingly". I assume that if there were parking nuisance charges that they would be dismissed under the group's constitutional right to freely assemble...and certainly wouldn't require the show of force that was apparently used in this operation. I haven't read of any public nuisance charges nor of any prior incidents of any kind which are associated or have lead up to this incident...unless I missed something.

      Also curious if your statments were intended to condone the act of finding home poker games online and showing up to commit armed robbery - I doubt they are, but who in their right mind would think that way? People should feel safe in their homes and in their communities, shouldn't they?

      Anyway, is there any merit to an argument that the authorities could have done a much greater service to the individuals involved and the community at large, by showing up with a friendly knock on the door and making them aware that they could be susceptible to an armed robbery instead of setting up a 3-month sting on the place and charging people with felonies?

      Again - your statements seem particularly knowledgeable and credible, I just wonder if you know how much flexibility there is with a "spirit of the law" defense and if you feel the progression of this case should have started out with a 2-liner about a parking nuisance in the San Mateo Police Blotter column rather than in the Late Breaking News Story with felony charges pending?

    • avatar for uzjedi
    • I posted links to these blog discussions in the 2+2 thread. I've seen threads about busts similar to this before. But I don't recall any that were about buy-ins this small. Have also heard stories about armed robbery, but again there was more money involved. :-/

    • avatar for Jason M
    • I talked to Tamara and she says the story will be at The Examiner tomorrow.

    • anonymous
    • There are plenty of poker games in the Bay Area whose organizers understand the difference between a private poker game and an underground cardroom.

      If you collect a fee of any sort, you are trespassing on the state law that limits this to licensed cardrooms. If you open a private game to the public and advertise it on the Web, you are inviting an armed robbery. If you piss off your neighbors by holding a game without adequate parking, you are inviting public nuisance charges. If you do so several times a week, as posts on this site claim, you are wearing a "Bust Me!" sign around your neck (or, if you prefer, on your posterior).

      Mr. Cardenas needs to find an attorney, cop a plea for operating an underground cardroom that was (hopefully) not a significant source of income for him and get on with his life.

    • anonymous
    • Has anyone been asked if they thought that any children were in "danger"?

    • avatar for Jason M
    • I agree Ethan. I called and left her a message - hopefully she'll call me back. Thanks for the post, Ken. Let me try one...

      I've been lured into "unwittingly" making more friends than I have in the Bay Area since I moved, all while learning how to play better poker and taking in a little bit of extra cash here and there. I feel so foolish!

    • anonymous
    • My Top 10 Confessions of an "Unwitting" participant:

      10) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" making friends via the Internet and live poker games
      9) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" blogging about my successes and failures
      8) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" sharpening my critical thinking skills
      7) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" consuming less beer (money + too much alcohol = stupid)
      6) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" participating in an inactive competitive hobby instead of having my knee replaced again so that I can play soccer competitively
      5) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" humming Kenny Rogers tunes in my head for the last 8 months ("you gotta know when to hold "em"")
      4) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" saving myself the embarrassment of arriving at a party as the 10th guy who brought a 3 lb bag of Mission Tortilla Chips, Tostitos Salsa, and a 6 pack of RC Cola to share with the group
      3) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" driving 35 miles to play poker with the company of friends instead of sitting alone on my couch playing online"and getting distracted by all the porn that"s out there"damn that confounded porn"damn you!
      2) I"ve been lured into "unwittingly" learning to take more control my emotions, be more patient, improve my ability to manage risk, win with dignity, lose with dignity, have more respect for money, and have more respect for people in general"all from someone younger than me
      1) I"ve been lured into unwittingly "going green" by carpooling to poker games at my friend"s house with other friends from the South Bay

    • anonymous
    • Glad to see there are still reporters that can do their jobs correctly. Now if only the SM daily news/journal would put in a little effort instead of just quoting from a press release.

    • anonymous
    • Hi everyone,
      I'm a reporter with the San Francisco Examiner...I received the press release from the Sheriff's Office about the bust and wanted to talk to players who were actually there so our coverage could be as accurate as possible. If you're willing, please call me today at 650-652-6733.

      Thank you,
      Tamara Barak Aparton
      Examiner Staff Writer

    • anonymous
    • It is not illegal to host home poker games as long as the host does not require a fee of any kind to participate. A fee violates the penal code which stipulates that the host cannot make a profit during the hosting of a game. For example: if there was a drink fee of $5 per player, and 20 players showed up per night, and there were 4 games per week, the host would take in $400 per week. If the cost of the drinks was under $400, then the difference would consitute "profit". In this case, all Mr. Cardenas has to do is produce receipts that prove that all monies taken in via drink fees were spent on drinks.

    • anonymous
    • I finished my though too soon...
      Not to mention people arriving with Holiday gifts for each other...which the undercover guys were invited to! "Lots of cars parked and people walking in with wrapped holiday gifts. I better call the fuzz!"

      I'm gonna have to come up with another word for a horrible poker player because the term "Donkey" clearly belongs on the bumbling masterminds behind this stake-out!

    • anonymous
    • Very true. If the cars were "coming and going" and I were a neighbor, I'd be suspicious. But cars parked for 3 to 5 hours at a time all at once? Helloooooooo"??

    • anonymous
    • "The undercover investigation determined that the gaming operation was more than just a casual card game and in fact maybe an illegal gambling operation perpetrated by Cardenas to fraudulently obtain money from the unwitting participants who were recruited online, according to the Sheriff"s Office."

      unbelievable. what liars! i'm not unwitting, how dare they call me unwitting! i'll match my un-wits against any of these cops any day. it was PRECISELY a casual card game. so much for the undercover investigation.

      "The San Mateo County Sheriff"s Office encourages citizens to report instances of heavy foot traffic, frequent visitors and illegal parking in residential areas by calling its anonymous tip line "

      should we send the sheriff's office a copy of the constitution and that pesky part about FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY?!?
      nobody ever parked illegally, so they're asking people to narc on neighbors for doing constitutionally protected activities.
      what is happening to our country?!?

    • anonymous
    • You should contact the paper or at least send a letter to the editor. Stupid dead tree newspapers - they'll print anything to sell a few copies.

    • anonymous
    • OMG..."lure" and "unwitting"...love how they spin it. SUCH BS!