1. 2008-04-13 07:45:36

   The Jewish Russian Steamroller

   One of the guys I play with frequently has been on a good roll. He's won and placed high in almost every game he's played lately, and he almost always has a big chip stack. It would start to get annoying, but he's a great player and a funny guy, so we live with it :)

   I played tonight in the $25 rebuy game, which is usually pretty crazy during the rebuy period, but it wasn't so crazy this time around with only 10 people.

   Early Stages

   I chased some questionable draws early on and lost about 10-20% of my stack (doh). I flopped a set and smooth-called a re-raise from a tight player, but pushed on the turn when draws came out (he folded). I turned a flush in position against a turned straight and my opponent went all in on the river. I flopped a flush against a flopped two pair and he called my all in on the river, even though his two pair was counterfeited (whew!) - same guy who folded his supposed overpair to my set. And I rivered a straight against someone who gave me odds :) So I was doing well. I coasted into the top 4, but only the top 4 with 30% of the chips, but only the top 3 get money...

   My Last Hand

   My opponent, the steamroller, had about the same chips as me, so we've been staying away from each other. We have stolen blinds here and there and tried to team up to kill the shorts. I go for a steal from the button with by raising the blinds 3 or 4 times. The steamroller calls (uh oh) and the tight player folds.

   The flop is . This seems mostly good for me, but my opponent bets out about 75% of the flop. I first consider raising all in, but decided he probably had me beat, and was willing to call a 2x pot sized bet. I'm guessing I have 14 outs, so I call. I really didn't want to play a big pot against the other chip leader, so I decided pot odds or no, if I didn't make my hand on the turn, I was out. Of course, the turn is the !

   My opponent bets 80% of his remaining stack, which is essentially all in. I raise the rest in. He calls and shows , which seems completely reasonable.

   The river of death is the . Oops!

   What Would You Do?

   Should I have just folded pre-flop? Obviously, in retrospect, but based on that flop and turn, would you do the same thing? I like to think it was right - I had a 90% chance of all but locking up the game on that turn.

   Thanks

   Thanks again for a great game, everybody. I had a few suckouts, so what goes around comes around :p

   Posted by Jason M at 2008-04-13 07:45:36

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Comments on “The Jewish Russian Steamroller”

1. • Posted by uzjedi g 2008-04-16 13:43:46
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   • hmmmm....I would fold pre-flop. But if I did play it for some reason, there's not a chance in HELL I'm folding the flop. I think that's a pretty big mistake.

     I'm curious to know how deep you were. When he bet 80% of his stack on the turn, was that an overbet or just about a pot bet? Because, even though you are the deep stacks and don't want to tangle in an ideal world, you flopped a monster. And if his turn bet was only about pot, then the blinds were big enough relative to the stacks that you might as well have raised/shoved the flop. Then you make use of folding equity and still have plenty of equity if called, even against most hands that are beating you.

     If the stacks were deep then I suppose a small-ball flat call is fine. But, regardless of the stacks, I think you were very right not to fold the flop.

     Poker is a long term game. I know that in a cash game I can think exclusively about the long term since I can reload. And I know that pot odds decisions change when your tourney life is at risk...but a pair and a flush draw...that's a big hand.

     Play FTW. And of course you can't even think about folding the turn in that spot. You WANT hands like his to call you, even though they have outs. Just a tough beat.

2. • Posted by Jason M g 2008-04-16 07:08:15
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   • I appreciate the comments, Alexis. That is good stuff to think about.

     Unfortunately I couldn't make a value bet against Yuri once I made my flush, because he essentially put himself all in (he bet all his big chips) so I said I am all in or call or whatever.

     I definitely wasn't happy mixing it up with Yuri, but the "short stacks" had doubled up twice so it was a rough game and I needed to get chips here and there.

     I think my expected value was in the right place. If I missed my flush, no big deal. I guess I couldn't guarantee I'd be getting paid off if the flush hit, but I had good pot odds and didn't even need the implied. Of course, the downside is I can still lose when I hit my flush - either to the full house or a better flush, which is totally possible.

     I'd say I had a good 75% chance of cashing if I just kept folding for a while or making those moves with big/made hands. I will definitely think about that a bit more next time.

     Always learning and improving...

3. • Posted by Pokermom g 2008-04-15 03:26:22
   • 

   • You can lay it down on the flop, but have a hard time laying it down on the turn, for sure. Me, I always put my opponent on a way better hand than they have and Yuri holding the would have crossed my mind. So I would wonder if I was drawing to the second best flush and, when it hit, I would probably not push since one more card was coming and I would only be called by a set, 2 pair, AT or nut flush draw. Indeed the AT could be the nut straight (but not nut hand) and the nut flush draw. That's the range of hands that would call an all in from the big stack.

     I'd rather put out a value bet and get paid by weaker hands as only a truly strong hand that had the potential to beat me would call from a strong player with a big stack, I would think.

     If it were any other stack involved (ie, short stacks), I would have pushed on the draw on the flop.

     Playing to win makes sense but mixing it up with the big stack - the only guy that can take you out - when you already have a pretty good stack yourself and before you reach bottom money doesn't make much sense to me.

     But you and I are very different players, Jason. In a recent tourney, I folded pocket 5s from the sb because the bb had a lot of chips and he might call any bet I put out there and knock me out with 96o or similar crap. I fold A high and K high (rag kicker) in position if there are small stacks looking to double up behind me or the bb is a big stack defender.

     I always show when I do this too. When I do push, I get a lot of folding action. I like that.

     Anyway, when I'm really deep in a tourney, I start thinking more about stacks than position. Picking your spots can be tricky business, but avoiding big stacks that are likely to knock you out is a top priority to me.

     As I said, we are very different players. I'm much more passive and rarely try to steal.

     That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

     -

4. • Posted by Craig g 2008-04-14 16:29:22
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   • Yup, "the steamroller" is on a roll! Its gonna be hard to catch 'em now. btw Jason, nice explanation of what the points are good for.

     Ya, that call I made when you had your flush (hearts?) on the flop vs. my counterfeited 2 pair was a donkey call but I guess I was tilting a bit, thought you might have been bluffing. Should have know better. Plus I suppose I was looking for a reason to re-buy. If it wasn't a re-buy tourney I'm pretty sure I would have folded.

     I was also very lucky to catch AA when Alexis pushed with AQ.
     btw, after the host hit a hot streak during the cash game (quads and straight flush within 10 minutes) and factoring in my re-buy, I ended about even. Oh well.

5. • Posted by Ethan g 2008-04-14 07:58:17
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   • Have to agree with Nick - how could you lay that down? I'm curious what your read was.

6. • Posted by Nick L g 2008-04-14 04:37:17
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   • Good point maybe you could of got out pre flop but your intentions were good with trying to steal. You managed to hit a nice flop and turn the for sure win 9/10 of times. No fault just bad luck with him hitting a 4 outer.

7. • Posted by Jason M g 2008-04-13 22:48:15
   • 

   • I agree with you, but I'd rather win the whole thing than just make sure I get the money. I think putting myself in a position to all but win the whole thing 90% of the time if I hit the flush is a good risk. If I miss, I get out. I'll take that 1/10 river if it means winning 5 times more money 9/10 times, right?

     BTW, my Omaha Captcha is QQ23 - seems okay for hi/lo.

8. • Posted by Pokermom g 2008-04-13 21:43:29
   • 

   • Sick beat, but I would have folded to Yuri's 75% bet on the flop because, even if I was a favorite to win, I would know I'm currently behind and there is no reason to mix it up with the big stack at that point. I've bubbled a lot lately, so I think more about making the money than winning a particular hand these days.

     Conversely, earlier in tourneys I'm taking much, MUCH bigger risks so that I can build my stack or get the hell out. I'm sick of doing the time only to miss the money.

     -