Flush Draws

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1. • Posted by Nick L 2008-02-08 03:06:21
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   • I would like some help on how everyone else likes to play flush draws. In 3/6 at La Center (When I do play that game) I like to raise with A big suited. But with Ax suited I like to limp to flop a flush draw and play it like hitting top pair or middle pair. Then I would take it a step further and limp with king x suited just to hit that flush draw and be drawing close to the nuts. I like to think of it as low risk high reward. But, in a setting like Vegas, Playing 1/2 NL in a somewhat aggressive table. I fold Kx suited more often and even sometimes not even play with Ax suited if it is to much to go. Because the intent is not to flop a pair but to flop a flush draw and if you flop trips with your under card I look at that as an unexpected big pot to create.

     The lesson I want to learn is are these hands decent enough to even call 10 bucks pre flop(Ace x suited or King x suited?) Cause I know after the flop it is all about pot odds and implied odds but I am asking about pre flop.

2. • Posted by Jason M 2008-02-08 06:30:15
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   • Limit is not my game (not that I'm a no-limit pro). I'll start with no-limit. I think it's a negative expectation play to call a raise preflop with Ax or Kx suited if you are mainly trying to "hit" a flush draw. You won't flop a flush much. 1 in 40? If you get your draw, most good players will make you pay too much to see it, and then not pay you off when you hit it. If you flop a middle or even top pair with your bottom card, you can lose a lot of money. Remember, this is a raised pot - people will have overcards and overpairs and trips and other draws. If you hit your top pair, you probably have the worst kicker. So you are really going for trips or two pair, which is unlikely. Just fold 'em. That is, unless you are going to make a move with them because of some other factors, such as having a good guess at somebody's hand and a good idea you can push them off it. In that case, it doesn't really matter what you are holding, though.

     For limit, I can see the strategy, although it still seems a little loose, flush draws can be very profitable. In fact, if enough people are in the pot, raising with a flush draw on the flop can actually increase your EV. If you are a 2-1 dog to make your flush, but you can get 4 people to call your raise, that's money. But the same problems about flopping bad pairs still apply, so I'd save these for late position. You might also use one of those if you are trying to advertise that you are a loose player who likes draws - but that means you should not be a loose player who likes draws!

     Just my thoughts...

3. • Posted by Jonas L 2008-02-12 08:03:00
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   • word...

4. • Posted by Pokermom 2008-02-28 01:39:26
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   • Limit, No Limit, I go by what Slansky says. First of all Axs is a Group 5 hand (if x < 10), and a really weak one at that, practically falling into the Group 6 category. In early position, you should never stray beyond a Group 4 hand. In a loose (BUT NOT AGGRESSIVE) table, it's okay to play Group 5 hands in early position. In a tough game, Group 3 or better in early position.

     Slansky does give a nod to suited connectors, though, so if your Ax is A2 / A3, it moves up a notch. Pre-flop is more about position. Post flop becomes more about odds. I go by Slansky and his rule of thumb for position, type of table (loose, tight, aggressive, friendly, etc.) and hand ranking (memorize those rankings, if you haven't already!) for pre-flop decisions. You really can't have a better guide. Here's the info:

     Slansky First 2 Cards

5. • Posted by Jason M 2008-02-28 05:39:34
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   • Nice post, Alexis. I am going to refresh my memory on those hand groupings. I probably stray a bit - those A5 suited hands look to tasty :)

6. • Posted by Krishna 2008-02-28 05:59:12
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   • Good posts that have excellent points that are valid for most situations.
     In some situations Ax Kx have lot of value.

     When you are deep (>200BB) Ax Kx go up in value. Of course one may overestimate implied odds but if the opponent is spewy he will pay you off even after seeing three flush cards. Imagine betting big on the turn when flush card hits and opponent suspects that you are bluffing and will call "to see what you do on river". You go all in on river and he may call thinking he is pot committed with two pair on top pair top kicker. Of course how much you get paid depends on what has been happening until this hand. If you have been showing bluffs the opponent may not believe you hit the flush and pay you off.
     So play these hands when you are deep against opponent that will try to catch your bluff.
     Position is important on this hands and of course you need to mix up your play by sometimes betting/overbetting with the flush draw.

7. • Posted by Jason M 2008-03-05 07:03:54
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   • Nice post, Krishna. It's always important to consider how different situations (players, table images, reads) change many things about the game, whether it's starting hands or how to bet on the turn.

     It is true that hands like go up in value as the stacks get deeper and your opponents are more less. It seems as that happens, starting hand requirements seem to be more like starting hands for limit Hold'em. Weird. I guess the implied pot odds in those situations correlate to the implied pot odds versus the pre-flop wagers in limit.

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