sunday game miss step

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1. • Posted by FREMONTkyle 2008-05-22 00:58:08
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   • ok here is the situation your 5 handed youve got 90k in chips the next closest to you is at 50k blinds are at 2.5k and 5k. your on the button against darren who is in the sm blind and has the 50K. your image apparently is of a table captain even though youve shown 75% of your hands at the final table. the previous hand you made a pre flop raise in the cut off to 12.5k with JTos he called with JTos flop came KQblank rainbow and you both check the flop. the turn is another blank and you both check. the turn is another blank and you both check. showdown you both have JT for a split pot. the next hand you look down at AJos and make the same raise from the button (12.5k) he calls out the sm blind and says wouldnt it be funny if we had the same hand again. flop comes ATT i check hoping hell bet because i remember darren being an extremly aggressive player he checks. turn is a K i bet out 15k into 25k pot he immediatly pushes all in. im assuming he has a weak A and its a split pot because of all the strength hes giving off.hes got 39k behind. i figure ive got the Q and J to win if im right so im on a free roll. it crosses my mind he could have the JQ but i couldnt figure out why he would do that with it there i would figure hed try and milk it a lil bit more. if it wasnt him and his reputation i might of folded and of course if i didnt have such a stack. so i eventually call.

     WAS IT THE RIGHT PLAY TO BE CONTINUED LATER AFTER SOME REPLYS

2. • Posted by Pokermom 2008-05-22 01:19:32
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   • Darren would not risk his tournament life without something better than the possibility of a split pot outcome against a player like you, Kyle, is my read.

     He also knows he gets more calls when he pushes because of his reputation as an aggressive player. We all want to call him because he loves showing us his winning bluffs.

     He doesn't bluff all the time. Indeed, I think he's one of our best players, hands down. His aggressive/smart style is, at times, light years ahead of my play.

     And he would likely not bet into an ace on the flop this late in the tourney as he knows it's ultimately his tournament life at risk, so you probably lost the hand at the checked flop, if he wasn't already sitting on AT himself (or similary sick hand).

     Early in the tourney, you can check raise Darren and he'll fold when he's in the middle of a play and you catch him. Late in a tourney, well, watch out. He's a clever one.

     My bet is that this hand did not wind up with a split pot. You called and he scooped. Yes? (If no, then Darren can get into my head even when I'm not playing! :D)

     -

3. • Posted by Jason M 2008-05-22 04:54:08
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   • I'm posting this before I read Alexis' post. From your title and the fact that crossed your mind, I have to believe Darren had that hand. But, let me look at it objectively...

     I think your positions aren't quite correct. You say this hand Darren is in the small blind, yet you say you check first, hoping he will bet. I'm assuming you are remembering the fact you were in the cut-off better than who checked first, cuz you said you were on the button the previous hand. So I'm going to rewrite it in my mind that he checked and then you checked on the flop hoping to trap him on the turn, then he check-raised on the turn.

     First, consider he defended your button raise of the same amount from the big blind with . You both showed down and his belief that you were going for a steal was confirmed. Now you are in the cutoff, and you make the same raise. If I'm trying to think like Darren from your position, I would think Darren must have a better hand than last time if he calls your raise. I would think somebody wouldn't try to pull the same thing twice in a row, so you must have a better hand. Something like or better or or better or .

     So, Darren checks on the flop. We all know Darren is aggressive, but he's usually smart about it. If he had a made hand on that flop, he should bet. Darren knows we know he's aggressive, so the right move for Darren if he has a great hand is to be aggressive when his opponent has shown strength. He doesn't do that, so I'm guessing he doesn't have a made hand or a sick draw. He might have a weak ace, but I think he'd bet that to see where he's at. He's a smart one :)

     So the turn is the king. Darren has to wonder why you didn't bet the flop, so maybe you have a weak hand. Or maybe you are trapping. This is the key. If he thinks you're weak, what does he check with? If he thinks you're strong, what does he check with? If he thinks you're weak, he only checks with a made hand. If he thinks you're strong, he will only check with a bad hand. I'm guessing he thought you were weak, so he checks with a strong hand, hoping to let you catch up.

     You bet 15k into the 25k pot, and Darren has about 23k more than that. He pushes all in. Does he think you'll fold for 23k when there is 55k in the pot. Probably not, especially since you can afford to make the wrong call if you do make a misjudgment. Darren wants you to call because he thinks he has you. I would put him on the straight or his paired king. Evidently, it sounds like he had the straight. Unfortunately, you check on the flop gave him the impression you might have something like or worse, but probably not an ace. Either way, after you bet the turn, he figures you're pot committed; besides, even if you paired there, he needs to charge you for your full house draw. I think you have to fold.

4. • Posted by FREMONTkyle 2008-05-22 12:05:11
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   • ok your right about the position i had it wrong i was cut off he was button

     his all in was 39k more on top of the 15k

     and 2 hands before the check down he led out UTG with QJos for 11.2 with blinds at 2.5k and 5k when i had AKos but i was in the big blind and i dont care much for AK so i just flat called thinking that was a fishy raise i didnt hit the flop it came Q high he pushed instantly when i checked and he showed a Q.

     thinking in hindishgt i believe i should of folded also just because T and alex were playing supper tight and i had them subdued so even in a questionable situation i ould of waited for better spot and recouped what i just lost off their blinds plus i can wait for john marshall to make a horrible post flop play and capitalize so regardless of whether i might be ahead or on a free roll against a A rag the proper play would of been to fold and protect my chip lead

5. • Posted by Jason M 2008-05-22 17:05:42
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   • Changing the position changes things a bit. Kyle messaged me and asked what I think would have happened if he bet 15k into the 25k pot on the flop. First, in general, I think you have to, unless you are trying to be crafty or if you really think you are beaten. It seems like chances are you aren't. Anyway, yeah, I'm pretty sure he folds on your flop bet. He's gotta put you on a decent hand preflop, and I doubt he'd think his hand is good if he pairs a Q or J, so he's just hoping he can get lucky on the turn, I think.

6. • Posted by FREMONTkyle 2008-05-22 21:22:09
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   • yeah i was trying to be slick and with the check down with JT when i didnt hit the previous hand i was really hopping to induce a bluff and end the pot right there as i was pretty sure he didnt have the T

7. • Posted by Jason M 2008-05-22 22:55:46
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   • I think a check there is fine, except when he gets the turn of doom on you!

8. • Posted by Krishna 2008-05-23 00:35:12
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   • With two players read to bust the big stacks should try and eliminate the small stacks first.
     This is best move for both of them.
     They should choose to check it down if all three of them are in a hand and short stack is allin.

     So even if there is 10% chance you are ahead it is the right play to fold.

9. • Posted by Krishna 2008-05-23 00:42:49
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   • Preflop:
     Generally with M<10 it is push fold time.
     A small raise is good if you want to tangle with short stacks.
     With 4 people behind you a small raise can be restealed by some one who has Darren's stack.
     Would you have called if Darren pushed all in?
     A good position to resteal would be SB or BB.
     Darren being on button could not resteal because he was worried about SB, BB.

10. • Posted by FREMONTkyle 2008-05-23 12:33:14
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    • i was the table captain at this time so if darren had pushed depending on how he acted i more than likly fold after a lil deliberation. we were 2 handed on the flop. he has a tendency to re steal but 5 handed AJos to me is really strong hand. i like the 2.5x pre flop raise when blinds get a bit higher for multiple reasons.

      1. because it allows me to open up my pre flop range to raise with esspessially when 2 of the 5 players at the table are just trying to fold there way up to the next pay scale which theresa and alex were doing in my estimation.
      2. there was a novice of sort at the table who makes quite a few post flop mistakes in john marshall so i want to ovbiously play small pot poker pre flop if hes in the hand and limit the variance
      3. plus with the smaller pre flop raise my follow up bet doesnt have to be as big it could be 3x big blind so this play when i miss is more profitable. Due to risk VS reward.
      4. hopefully with the wider range im able to catch someone frustrated on the flop when they dont see my hand disguised and get them to check raise me all in.

      i guess you could say i come from the negranu/lindgren school of poker of course not quite to the degree they take it

      bottom line im not afraid to have to make decsions on the flop,turn or river.

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