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Cheating

- Posted by Graham 2008-02-28 00:32:18
- OK, I've been in some dicey situations at the poker table and I'm wondering where everyone stands on these. There's always the time where the dude to your left basically shows you his cards and then stays in the pot. Generally I wait until the hand is over and tell him discreetly to be more careful, but what happens when you end up in the hand together? Example: Montbleu Casino, South Lake Tahoe. The game was 1/2 NL, it was late and everyone was drunk. Jason is to my left and some nice young dude was to my right. There wasn't much money at the table, so basically the house was just winning. The cocktail waitress was basically the best reason to stick around. Then two more dudes sit down with grips of chips and real quick I pick up QQ late. One new guy raises in front of me and I call to make it heads up. The flop features two kings and new guy bets out strong. The table was loud, so I may have been the only one who heard my right hand neighbor say, 'Well, I folded my king.' Dilemma. Of course, the guy betting into me can have the case king, but it's that much less likely. If I call out my neighbor, he probably gets the boot and who knows what happens to that hand. I end up calling this guy's bluff 'til the very end and liberating about 300 from him. We stood up soon after. Looking back, maybe the right thing to do was call out my neighbor on his 'insider trading,' but I won't lie, alcohol was effecting my judgment, so was that prospective cash. It sucks for sure, but, what would you do?
  g
- Posted by Pokermom 2008-02-28 01:55:55
- If it were me, I would have offered that information to my opponent. The house doesn't make money on drunken guests they eject, so the other guy would likely just get a warning (AS HE SHOULD). It sounds like you have some guilt issues on this, so 5 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Father's and you're good.
- Posted by Jason M 2008-02-28 05:28:48
- Man, that was a good weekend. People just kept giving us our money... We skipped snowboarding because of the wind, but the cards made up for it IN FULL.
  If I were in that position, I'd probably make the knowledge public, like Alexis said. Actually, I'd probably say something like "this dude is whining that he folded a king, but I find that hard to believe, considering I HAVE THE OTHER ONE". Downplay it a bit, and maybe make my bluffy opponent think I'm trying to act strong, so I must not have a good hand...
- Posted by Ethan 2008-03-01 05:47:42
- What a hard situation. I guess the right thing to do is probably Jason's angle. But I can't fault you for not saying anything. What if the guy to your left had been joking? You've got no way of knowing.
- Posted by Nick L 2008-03-01 20:13:41
- I was in kinda similar situation on Thursday night in this tournament that I played in. I just didn't say anything I felt like it wasn't my fault that nobody at the table paid attention to what the river brought my opponent. I feel now I will never say a word ever about it I did feel a little guilty but again not my problem.
- Posted by Jason M 2008-03-03 20:46:51
- I've been in Nick's situation before, too. In his case, it wasn't at the casino, so it is on each player to make sure they do not have the best hand before they muck their cards after an all-in. In a casino, assuming the dealer doesn't make a mistake and a player mucks their hand, it's over. Some people play that way in home games, and I certainly would in home games for large sums of money (relative to me). In home games with friends for smalls sums of money, I wouldn't be such a stickler. Either way, if you are going to dish it out that way, you have to be able to take it. If you muck your hand, regardless of what people saw or said, that's it.
  I can't remember the details, but Yuri and Dave had a similar situation this Saturday. Dave had mucked his hand because he thought it was a split but it turned out he had won, and Yuri let him have the pot. I guess that's not too extreme, but it was still pretty cool.
  Has anybody else seen stuff like this? What ended up happening in the end?
- Posted by Pokermom 2008-03-04 02:01:12
- In the Dave/Yuri example, Dave had flipped his cards over and then mucked his hand. Yuri had flopped 2 pair, aces and 6's or 5's. Dave had AK. Then came runner runner pair, larger than 5's or 6's, so Yuri's second pair was counterfeited.
  Anyway, Dave thought he lost, and mucked his hand after flipping it over for all to see. Indeed, most of us at the table thought Yuri won, but it was pointed out that the K played and Yuri - WITHOUT ANY HESITATION AT ALL - pushed the pot to Dave.
  Very gracious of Yuri. Kinda forgives some of the other stuff about him that is super annoying. :>
  -Alexis
  The Queen of Annoying
- Posted by Pokermom 2008-03-04 02:14:29
- And I have seen it both ways in a casino. Indeed, the Saturday tourney I was in this week, a guy has raised up the bet quite a bit and the guy to my right said call and threw in the bb amount. The dealer told him that the bet had been raised, so the guy instinctivly pulled his bb bet back and threw his cards to the center, but they did not touch the muck.
  The dealer didn't move a muscle.
  I said, that's dead money, either complete the bet and get your damn cards before they are mucked, or you have to at least put in the bb as dead.
  The dealer didn't move a muscle.
  The player retrieved his cards, completed the bet and then won the hand.
  A player not in the action (not the player who was called and later lost, I might add) tore me a new asshole for "telling the dealer what to do". He was so very torked by me, it was amazing. The funny thing was, the guy that lost never said a word. Also, the guy that lost had, a few pots back, practically screamed at the dealer when I won a pot saying it should be a chop (with another player, not him). He was wrong, we all knew it, but he would not shut up until we retrieved all the cards and showed him. He was pretty chagrined after that.
  Anyway, I have been told by dealers that they don't like to be the bad guy. That they appreciate players pointing out mistakes because the pot should go to the person who won it. And people should play their hands if they are willing to complete a bet.
  Another time, I was in position 1 and my opponent was in position 9 in a 5-200 spread game. The side of the dealer I was on was the muck side, so I had to be especially careful of not mucking my cards. Anyway, the pot had been raised, re-raised to over $300 before the river. On the river my opponent puts out a $30 bet and I re-raise him to $200, which was all my chips I had left. I was all in. He thinks and thinks and thinks. He says, "I can't do it" and flips over his cards. and pushes them to the dealer. I then push my cards into the muck, which is 2 inches from my hands. The guy quickly grabs his cards and SCREAMS, "you mucked! you mucked! the pot is mine!"
  Wow. What a bastard. Well, the floor manager comes over. He rules that, since I was all in, if I can identify my hand, I can retrieve my cards from the muck. I do that. I get my cards. The floor manager then asks the (ASSHOLE) if he would like to call my bet. He thinks and thinks and thinks and finally mucks for real. Then he gets up in a huff and leaves.
  I drag the pot.
  The best part? He had me beat. :>
  But I tell you, that is one lesson I have not forgotten. I never take a seat right next to the muck if I can help it and I never, NEVER muck my hand until the chips have been pushed to me.
- Posted by Jason M 2008-03-04 06:33:57
- Nice follow-ups on the thread, Alexis. Thanks for remembering the Yuri/Dave hand better than I :) I knew it was something good that would show Yuri's stand-up-guy qualities!
  That hand where the guy tried to get you to muck your cards is RIDICULOUS. When I'm at the casino, I always wait for the dealer to push the pot to me before I muck. It's harder in home games, because you generally have to drag in the pot yourself. Unless you're Teresa - then you can just keep throwing money in and not worry about pulling it back!!! :p
- Posted by Ethan 2008-03-04 18:18:50
- Good advice. Makes note to not muck hand.
- Posted by Teresa 2008-03-04 21:37:08
- HEY!!!!!! haha. I take it back especially when I raise 1000000000000x the bb with pocket aces lol
- Posted by Jason M 2008-03-04 21:51:30
- Okay, I take it back, Teresa :) I was just joking - you win more than I like!!!
  So here's a tell on Teresa everybody - when she has she will raise 3 times more than you or I, because she is deathly afraid of a silvery-haired opponent calling with for the win.
- Posted by Teresa 2008-03-04 22:01:26
- I know I know lol I was too
  Sometimes I don't raise it that much, but that table was too crazy about pot odds :(
  Hahaha that's so funny. Always gotta be careful with DW
- Posted by uzjedi 2008-03-07 08:01:09
- So I guess you're just talking about unintentional "cheating." One thing I would remain aware of when at the table in a real casino is that it really is "dog eat dog." Not everyone is a bastard, but if you are too nice, then you just give up too much an edge relative to what the average person is willing to give up.
  I try to just be as fair as possible in all situations and just stick to the official rules. I am nice and will certainly tell someone if they've been accidentally showing me their cards once in a while. But I'm going to wait until the hand is over to do so. It really is his responsibility to keep his cards hidden.
  Also, if someone who's not in the hand is talking about the cards he folded, I'll tell him to knock it off, but I'm not going to tell the rest of the table what I overhear unless someone asks.
  I've found that too many people are all too willing to take up any slack you give them and take advantage of your niceness. But will often not extend you the same courtesy. Being a very honest and somewhat naive, but very alert home-schooler when I started playing allowed me to notice this early on.
  So, I never muck until the pot is pushed, I look away when someone is looking at their hand, and I will make all efforts to be fair and make sure rules are enforced. But if someone is upset and sighs to themselves a little whisper about folding that K, then I will play accordingly.
- Posted by Jason M 2008-03-07 21:50:14
- Well put. I think he just let you off the hook, G :)

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