Show and Tells

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1. • Posted by Graham 2008-03-18 21:45:41
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   • I'll admit I'm probably way more interested in tells than I should be. Still I wonder, what do you guys look for in certain situations? I've followed the 'if he stares you down, he's bluffing' rule to some success, but very few others that are reliable. One thing I've noticed when playing at a table with Stephen is that he asks a lot of questions. Stephen, what sorts of things do you look for when you do that?

2. • Posted by Jason M 2008-03-18 23:03:10
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   • How many games are you gaming in your game?

3. • Posted by Graham 2008-03-19 00:13:32
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   • Um, what!? I'm talking about live poker. One game at a time, but that doesn't feel like something that should need to be specified. Am I answering the right question?

4. • Posted by Pokermom 2008-03-19 01:42:16
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   • I have been told by the pros that the best (and only somewhat "reliable") tell is betting patterns.

     This applies to experienced players. They will also use your knowledge of body language tells to screw with you. Also, they will screw with you with their betting patterns, but not as often because ACTING versus putting MONEY AT RISK are not equal.

     Another thing I've found is that nervousness is NATURAL. If a guy is all in, he is likely nervous with the best hand as he is with the worst. Maybe more nervous with the bad hand, but nobody likes getting their aces cracked and, unless the board has already told you that you hold the absolute vs. current nuts, we all fear being drawn out on.

     Also, just staring at some people makes them self-concious and nervous. Somewhat deep into a tournament, I stared down a guy that came over the top on my huge raise. I had pocket KKs. He had me covered. I waited and waited and waited. The longer I waited, the more nervous he was. I was about to call when I dialed back and assessed the PLAYER and the BET.

     This was a very good player. Experienced. Old - probably been playing for 50 years. He only went in with the best. This was pre-flop. I asked if he would show if I folded. He said no. That means nothing, but I just wanted to chat him up. I had 2,400 in the pot with only another 5,600 behind it. The player was solid. He also knew I was a solid player. He knew I had a big pair. Yet he came over the top... which leads to..

     The bet. He knows I'm solid and I have a big pair and HE COMES OVER THE TOP?

     Crap, I couldn't fold fast enough. He smiled and showed me his Aces even though he said he wouldn't show. That was his way of respecting my big lay down even though I didn't show my cards. He knew what I had. My bet told him precisely what I had. And, indeed, his bet told me precisely what he had, but I didn't realize it at first.

     A corollary - Confidence means nothing too with most experienced players. Trust me, the old-timers have played so god damn much that they are both unflappable and exude confidence when they are betting bottom pair no kicker.

     Assess the player.
     Assess the bet.

     Inexperienced players? Well, they are your fish. Trying to beat the best players is usually a recipe for losing all your winnings in one hand. Size yourself up against the competition and pick on players weaker than you and try not to get trapped by the ones better than you by investing too much time trying to read them.

     I find myself enormously easy to read, yet I've been told that I'm unpredictable. I have yet to reconcile those two concepts...

     -

5. • Posted by Krishna 2008-03-19 18:58:04
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   • You folded KK!!

     I could never do that even if had super read on the opponent especially in tournament situation or short stack situations.
     QQ - maybe I fold but not KK.
     KK is ahead of his range and I cannot override high equity based on my read.
     If he has AA I lose my stack and move on.

     What does everyone else think?

6. • Posted by Pokermom 2008-03-19 20:02:36
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   • Only with this player. He would only go over the top with aces. That is the only hand he would do it with. And it was my tournament life - if I folded I still could be competitive. I finished just out of the money, unfortunately, but getting deep is the first battle...

     Also... Tournament play...

     In a tournament, when we approach the bubble and I'm short stacked, I fold QQ KK out of position, if I can make it to the money. It all depends on the size of the stack. Going all in out of position with QQ KK on the bubble, being the short stack, is inviting 8 callers who will all check it down. I'll never win that way, but if I grind one more position, I'm in the money...

7. • Posted by Krishna 2008-03-19 20:20:55
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   • If you had solid read on this player then it is a good laydown. It all depends on stack sizes though.
     If you laid it down and still had lots of chips compared to rest of the field then it is good.
     But you lay down and don't have enough chips to go far, you should risk it all with second best hand .
     I generally play to go deep but I when you have 6 tournaments running it is easy to risk it.
     I think it is tough taking huge risks live because you want to stay at the table.

     About QQ, KK with short stack:

     I think your reasoning sounds correct but it is very very conservative. It all depends on who else is short stacked and how far is the cash out.
     Even if 3 players call my allin I am in good situation to quadruple up and win it all.

8. • Posted by Pokermom 2008-03-19 20:59:08
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   • Correct, if I was more pot committed in that example, I would not have folded my KK, but I had plenty behind it to fight another battle.

     I can be very conservative when it comes to grinding to the money, that is a fact. If my stack is so short I won't even last the blinds, then I push. If my stack is very short, but able to last 2-4 bb, then I might wait, if on the bubble. Someone is bound to bust out before me. It happens all the time. I've cashed many times that way.

9. • Posted by Graham 2008-03-19 23:03:58
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   • What we have here (besides hijacking my tells thread ;-) is a difference in styles. On one side, a player who wants to finish in the money; on the other, a player who wants to win the tournament. On the short stack, it's a valid decision to just fold until you have the nuts or the blinds get you. As Alexis has stated, it surely works. In my experience, players pick up on it pretty often. Think about it from a bigger stack's perspective: they certainly aren't going all-in with some mediocre shit only to get crippled and have to fight for money themselves. I see most everyone tighten up when the bubble looms. That said, if I got QQ or KK under the gun on the bubble, I'd certainly think about going all-in (or possibly playing a limp-reraise, but that's a whole 'nuther thread). Mostly for the same reasons that Alexis would fold. I'd love to see everyone call. I'd love to see four of them have Ax and the rest have JJ, TT, etc. With only a little luck you could 'win' the tournament right there. Or you could bust out with nothing... I guess I'm just repeating myself now. Different styles and different goals lend themselves to different decisions. While I'm repeating myself, didn't this start out as a tells thread!? Nice read, Alexis!

10. • Posted by Jason M 2008-03-19 23:44:46
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    • I agree w/ G. Different goals and styles... I'm all about the win. And playing 4-6 tables at once online would make anybody go for it all. In big tournaments where each place makes a considerable amount of difference, I could see playing extra tight when waiting for one person to bust is a meaningful payout difference.

      Nowwwwwwwwwwwww, back to tells.

      I know tells and body language can work to your advantage. Just how much depends, I guess. I imagine playing with professionals would make tells less useful, and I also don't want to discount the use of betting patterns. That being said, I've made some good calls and folds based on tells.

      I know Stephen has garnered a fair amount of information from his opponents. If you read his Wynn Classic blog posts, you can read how he called down a big bluff partially from the body language of the opponent.

      Alexis, remember me folding my top-pair to John Marshall's two-pair on the KJ9 board at Darren's? I was going to call, and I felt it could have been behind, but I was willing to risk it, until he did something that he had done the last time he flopped a big one against me. So I folded. Who knows, maybe I was lucky that he accidentally did that, or maybe I actually picked up on something.

      I also like to try and throw false tells to people who are watching. But most importantly I make sure my bets tell the same story :)

11. • Posted by Pokermom 2008-03-20 23:07:34
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    • WHAT IS JOHN M'S TELL GOD DAMN IT?!

      really, what is it? Enquiring minds want to know...

      -

12. • Posted by Ethan 2008-03-21 02:14:04
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    • Wow, awesome thread. I'm not that experienced a player, but I have to agree that betting tells the most, and actions when betting tell more than when someone is just sitting there sweating. For example, an insta-call tells you a lot about that player's hands, especially if you think they aren't good enough to bluff-insta-call you. I always avoid the insta-call and try to make the same motions when I put my chips in. That may not be a good idea, but at least it makes me feel better ;-)

13. • Posted by Phil 2008-03-24 04:50:32
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    • Within the past 4 months there've been two situations in which I folded premium hands.

      In one case I had AA. I'd made a standard raise and all but the player to my right called. The flop came 3 10 10. I can't remember what my opponent (Rita, the "Black Orchid") bet; It was somewhere between 1/2 the pot and the whole pot. It would have been a good chunk of my stack to call. I considered going all-in. But I didn't feel good about it. I had a feeling Rita had a 10. Perhaps it was something in her body language – the way she was leaning forward, completely motionless and silent. Or perhaps I was just scared of her because she'd knocked me out of tournaments several times before. Whatever the case, I decided I was beat, and I slapped my Aces down on the table face up. "I fold," I said. She looked at me over her left shoulder with a look of disbelief. "You're folding THAT?" "Yup," I said. She turned over 3 3 revealing her full house.

      Another time I was in a cash game where I was dealt KK. Again I made a standard raise, and only one player to my left called. The flop came something like 3 4 6. I bet half the pot, and my opponent raised to make it double that. I thought about it for a while and got a bad feeling. Somehow... just somehow I had the feeling the guy'd hit a straight. I know it really doesn't make sense, but I just knew I was beat! Again I folded my hand face up. KK down on the table. The guy looks down and groans. "Oh... I was supposed to make a lot of money on that hand." He shows me his AA.

      So, let me follow up by saying I am no where NEAR being a great player. I occasionally do stupid, stupid things. And my guesses as to people's hole cards are rarely accurate. Yet in those two cases, I believe I picked up on something. Something. ... Either that or I just made lucky guesses.

14. • Posted by uzjedi 2008-03-25 16:47:48
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    • I agree with the notion that the general public (mostly because of stupid Hollywood) over values the idea of tells. However, I think that many in the poker community, especially online players, actually underrate them a little.

      It's true, using sound logic to interpret betting patterns, narrow your opponents hand range, and then take the appropriate action based on all the available knowledge IS poker...95% of it anyway. "All the available knowledge" would of course include what type of players your opponents are, what type of player they think you are, and every other obvious facet of the game structure like position and stack sizes. The same reasoning applies to decisions regarding disguising your own hand, betting for value, your bluffing frequency, and a ton of more specific aspects of poker.

      I just see live tells as a way to help further narrow opponents hand ranges and make more accurate decisions. Sometimes that can change a fold into an all in; sometimes it changes almost nothing. It just depends on the situation.

      I read Caro's Book of Poker Tells like many others have. But when I look for tells it's almost never as clear cut as one mannerism meaning one thing across an entire spectrum of people. It's true that a few things tend to be surprisingly universal, at least among weaker players. And most of those fall into the weak means strong, strong means weak categories. But when you are dealing with decent players it's usually not that simple. What I look for is usually more subtle and very difficult for me to put into words. And I believe it's because of spending many hours at the tables combined with a sort of inherent ability for empathy that has allowed me to be fairly successful with my reads.

      Even bad players sometimes know how to keep their poker face, or fake tells. And good players can be quite practiced at it. So I like to talk to players. I ask them questions in an attempt to control the situation. I speak, and then they are forced to either respond to me or simply ignore me altogether. Most people will respond in some way or another. And when they do sometimes it's only a couple seconds worth of lost control that gives them away; so I have to be very observant. But even if I pick up on something, it still has to be coupled with all the info I've already deciphered.

      Nervous laughter; getting extra distracted with things like the tv, talking with another player, or the waitress; and being a little jittery are often signs of strength among weaker players. But I've found they are often signs of weakness among stronger players. This being because the stronger players are aware of the weak means strong act that many players put on and will reverse it one more time against someone they perceive as a thinking player.

      But as I mentioned before, it's usually more subtle and hard to put into words. It's often just a moment or two of them losing control and expressing their true emotions after you've made them a little uncomfortable with your words. The trick is to correctly interpret that expression and then act appropriately with all that you know. It's fascinating, and it sounds cool. But mastering the other 95% of the game is still way, way, WAY more important. ;)

15. • Posted by Jason M 2008-03-25 20:55:12
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    • I have a lot of catching up to do now that I'm back from Vegas, including some blog action, but I figured I'd do it a bit at a time.

      Jeff and I were sitting at a 1/2 NL table at the MGM yesterday. The table was really fun and about half of us were straddling, so the action was good. I had managed to win with against by flopping a flush after we were all in preflop. It was especially entertaining because after his raise, my re-raise, and his re-raise all in, my friendly opponent called my hand and suggested I fold it and I told him I couldn't fold against pocket queens and called.

      I hope I'm remembering the action on this next one correctly, because it was really amazing to see in a live game. A while later Jeff was on the straddle. Our friend on his left (from above paragraph) made a standard raise, a guy across the table re-raises, and Jeff doubles that raise. Our friend goes all in and the other dude calls. Jeff folds , face up. Wow - it seems right, but it still just hurts to see it, especially with such a big pot. The other dude shows and our friend takes down the pot with with a four-flush. Nice $120 save, Jeff.

      Stephen, thanks for writing that up. I really enjoy the insight into your crazy thinkings! Phil, I remember that full house Rita flopped. Good job not paying her off :)

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