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Trips, Straight Flush Draw!

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1. • Posted by Mr. Segan 2009-04-05 03:49:13
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   • This is deep stack tournament (10,000 chips) with an aggresive blind structure (20 mins):

     25-50
     50-100
     100-200
     200-400
     400-800-100
     500-1000-200

     You get the idea...

     So anyways, with 5 limpers when the blinds are 25-50, I make it 325 to go on BB (trying to isolate, too many limpers). Two callers.

     My hand:

     Flop:

     I am first to act and I make it 525 to go. UTG makes it 2100. Third limper folds.

     What do you do? (Some ppl know what actually happened, make comments pretending you don't know what happened - George, Sheila, Tony)

2. • Posted by Jason M 2009-04-05 06:13:26
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   • I'm pretty sure I wouldn't raise pre-flop from the big blind here. Just my preference. But now that it's done, and there is something like 1200 in the pot (right?), I like the bet (although I would probably bet more to deter straight draws and make people with worse jacks pay you off).

     Which player was this? That's important. I'll assume since you didn't specify any other action that it's either the first player to act after you and the other player folded or the first player folded and the other guy is the raiser.

     What kinds of things are you worried about here? A better jack or pocket tens or a full house. I would expect that being behind here is something like one in a few hundred at worst. Against a straight draw you lose something like 15% of the time (?) and against other hands you are ahead of you are way ahead.

     The pot now has 3600 or so and you need 1575 to call, after which you'll have 7500 (or so) in chips left. If you were to re-raise to deter any drawing hands, you need to make it for the rest of your stack. In a perfectly theoretically situation where there is no emotion tied to staying into the tournament and it is within your bankroll, I think the right move is to shove. Hopefully the player calls you with an over-pair or a worse jack or a straight draw.

     What ended up happening? I'm assuming your opponent had something dumb like and you turned the to give you a straight flush draw and your opponent the nut straight, to which you lost. Ugh.

3. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-04-05 07:22:06
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   • Preflop raise 1. way too big. 2. out position no reason to raise here. That being said once you raise here get the caller and repoped on that flop after that huge preflop raiseyou have to assume your outkicked. This guys range has too be super narrow after calling a preflop raise that big and repoping you. smooth call turn fold river if you miss flush or boat. That being said you shouldn't have even got yourself in this predicament sir :) Oh and A reraise on the turn here is pure sucide this deep.

4. • Posted by Mr. Segan 2009-04-05 16:15:54
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   • I figured he had J when he made that raise. When UTG called me pre-flop, his call was very unconvincing. He really didn't want to call. That made me think, he doesn't have AJ. He could have had JT, but I was hoping he had J(low kicker). I just ended up calling his raise of 2100.

     The turn card was

     After that turn card, it was very hard for me to throw that hand away. I pushed after the turn and he inst-called. He had

     River

     I do realize that my pre-flop raise was too big. I should have just checked or maybe make it 150 or 175. I probably would have got the same amount of callers and would have kept the pot smaller. On any other day I wouldn't have made such a raise, but on my way there George, Sheila and I were talking that we might have to play a lil aggressive today to be in the tournament. I got aggressive way tooooooooooooooooooooooo soon. :-(

     So, I was down to 400 in chips in the first 5 minutes of the tournament and surprisingly was not the first one out. I built y stack back to 2000. Wake up to late in position.. UTG raised it to 800 when the blinds were 100-200. I ended up pushing. BB called and then UTG went all in for 15000, and BB called.

     UTG:
     BB:

     Board:

     This tournament was a DONKFEST in its true sense.

5. • Posted by Jason M 2009-04-05 17:32:48
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   • People who limp-call such a raise with hands like {Kh Jd} make me want to puke. Sorry to hear you lost it, man. At least you just called - I would have shoved. I need to keep reminding myself that a lot of players do ridiculous things like play KJo in a multi-way raised pot. I can't think of a many hands with a jack that I would play that way. Gotta put ourselves in their heads... Also, the mathematical chance of all 4 jacks being in play is quite silly. That would also make his story hard to believe. Congrats on building back up, I guess :p

     Where was the tourney? Bay 101?

6. • Posted by Mr. Segan 2009-04-05 17:47:00
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   • The reason I just called was that there might a good chance it might be a chop pot and frankly I didn't want to commit all my chips in the first 5 minutes after a 3 hr drive to a tournament. Even though I did it on the turn. I guess I felt more confident with the straight flush draw added to my trips. Ended up being a bad decision. I guess the right play would have been to raise it smaller pre-flop and if someone goes over the top of you this early in a DEEP STACK tournament, give them some respect! (hard to with such a draw though)

     This was @ Tachi Palace. Home of Jerry Yang!

7. • Posted by Jason M 2009-04-05 18:01:38
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   • I agree it looked like you had a pretty strong hand on the turn there - much more than the flop, especially if you thought the guy could have a better jack. I also understand what you mean about not wanting to get out in the first 5 minutes... It's not like it was an online tournament and you could just start up another one.

     I seriously doubt I would raise anything right there after a bunch of other people limped in. You don't have to go after every pot when you have suited connecting painted cards. When you're out of position, it sucks.

     Even so, it would have been even harder to put your opponent on a hand without narrowing his range (although did you narrow it much - seems like not), and you would have lost a huge chunk of your stack, especially after having that royal draw. Not much you can do there...

8. • Posted by Jason M 2009-04-05 18:11:13
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   • Here's a fun piece of math: if your two opponents could only have broadway cards (T, J, Q, K, A) in their hands and we account for that flop and your cards, the chance of somebody out of the two opponents having a jack is 25% or 1-in-4. Now we all know that these guys didn't just have paint cards. This is why I have a hard time worrying about a jack here.

     However, like T said, if they call your raise (likely paint) and then they raise you on the flop, I guess you have to believe...

9. • Posted by Svidri 2009-04-06 00:30:34
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   • -Don't iso more than 3 limpers pre OOP with RIO hands
     -Your opponent shows strength on flop
     -Ship it on the flop because you have no FE and worse hands call you a lot
     -Also, combo draws are better on the flop than turn

10. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-04-06 04:10:34
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    • Just dont ever raise it to 525 prefop when the blinds are 25-50 and we wont have to deal with this crud lol. Man you guys put yourself in some spots. I got to get some of you some fancy clothes for your fancy plays;) He had 9g behind. Did you want him to ship 9g into a 1500 pot in a deep stack tourny where he can get in better spots later if he tries to control the pot size from here?

11. • Posted by Svidri 2009-04-06 16:56:15
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    • UPS PWNAGE, are you talking to me when you ask what I wanted him to do? I wouldn't ever tell another player exactly how to play a hand, but if they want it I can give generic advice. I know if it were me, well let's just say that QJs plays awesome multiway and there's not a compelling enough reason to ISO here, in the BB, imho.

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