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What would you do with this hand?

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1. • Posted by Darren 2009-04-21 21:54:52
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   • Table is 5/200 spread limit at Garden City. I'm at a full table of 9 and am sitting with $320 in chips. I am in seat 6 at the table and seat 1 is big blind. 2nd seat (loose player) bets out $10, 3rd and 4th folds, then 5th calls. I look down at and call as well. Both seat 7 and 8 fold. Seat 9 (SB) and big blind call. So now there are 5 people in the hand...

     Flop comes:

     SB checks. BB bets out $20 bringing the pot up to $70. Seat 2 (initial raiser) raises to $100 total. The pot is now at $150. 5th seat folds and now the action is on me.

     I think about this for about 20 seconds and call out time...So there is $150 in the pot and I'm sitting with $310. I initially want to raise $200 on top but that would put me just about all in. I think to myself, "I can't just call and hope to hit the spade on the turn, plus there are two others acting after me and the $20 raiser (seat 1) could very well re-pop it, or if anything, just call and now I would be 3 way on a flush draw". So, if I fold...I at least have my $310 left to play with. Sadly, I muck...

     I feel sick, cuz so does everyone else. Seat 2 mucks and takes down the pot. I ask him "Kings"? He grins and says "close".........he later claims he had aces (which I don't believe) but it could very well have been.

     Anyway, I told the two guys to my left what I folded and they looked at me like I was crazy for folding. I just replied with "I still have chips don't I? Besides, I had 3 guys acting behind me." They still thought I was crazy.

     What would you have done? What do you think of my decision? Am I crazy?

2. • Posted by Svidri 2009-04-21 22:33:59
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   • What do you think the range is for an UTG raiser (even fishy minraise) who 5x raises a flopped donk bet with 2 spades into a multiway pot?

     How many clean outs do you have?

     --

     I'm trying to be Socratic here... so please do respond... hopefully this post isn't a level since I thought you were a really good player at Paul and Lyd's, so this isn't a troll? Right? Do you play cash a lot or mainly tourneys? What stakes are you beating online?

3. • Posted by Darren 2009-04-21 22:52:18
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   • I play a lot of the home tournies we have on here, plus a couple here and there in casinos. 95% of the time when I am in GC or even Bay 101, I stick to the 5/200 spread limit or even 10/200 when the people who "are working" aren't playing.

     anyway, as far as this hand goes. I originally put this guy on a very wide range of hands as he was raising with low suited connectors, as well as off suit paint. He was definitely a pot builder (not a grower mind you).

     The one thing that honestly made me fold this hand was that he re-raised that $20 raise $80 more. This confused me for a second as he was much more likely to call while chasing, opposed to raise with a draw. Especially with 4 people to act after him, including the $20 raiser. So my thought process was that he figured he had it good enough to knock me and the next two guys off our hands and get a call out of the $20 raiser.

     So, I got out and played it safe. I ended up walking with $500 in total chips ($300 profit for 2 hours of play).

     I did find out what he had later though, but I'll email you what he had so that I can get some more feed back from others first.

     I thought I had made a mistake for about a half hour and couldn't get it out of my head thinking that I should have pushed, but at that point I just let it go and continued to chip away.

     Do you think it was a bad play on my part?

4. • Posted by Teresa 2009-04-22 00:20:44
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   • I can't say it was a bad play because I was knocked out of the Venetian Deepstacks with a similar hand, nut flush draw on the flop that never improved

5. • Posted by Krishna 2009-04-22 00:27:52
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   • Nice fold.
     You can't call so its allin or fold.
     Pot is small and knowing you, you are good enough player to profit (which you did) without gambling.

     A similar spot came up in my play but the stacks were different.
     1/2 NL
     I am in BB with A8c with 40BB.
     MP raises to ten gets 2 callers. I call knowing I am behind.
     Flop comes {8c 2c 3d}
     I check raise allin and initial raiser folds after cbetting.
     I pickup a medium size pot with A high.
     Here the pot is worth the risk and preflop raiser might just have overcards.

6. • Posted by Svidri 2009-04-22 01:17:59
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   • pre fold
     flop fold

     Pre is iffy because I'm not sure you are deep enough to play this hand pre. However, if it's a passive table I'd be more inclined to play it because you want to play a multiway pot and don't want to get 3b.

     Flop is a fold. UTG raising the donk bet is standard if he's a reg, but his bet sizing seems really fishy to me, so I would give him credit and make a mental note. You only have 8 clean outs if you are behind, so let this one go.

7. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-04-22 01:36:21
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   • How deep were the other players who limped preflop. Were the people behind you passive? Missing a lot of preflop info here to make an answer on the call. I'll go with I dont mind it cause its low limit game live. You have to fold the flop here, after given action.

8. • Posted by Svidri 2009-04-22 01:44:18
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   • UPS PWNAGE said:

     How deep were the other players who limped preflop. Were the people behind you passive? Missing a lot of preflop info here to make an answer on the call. I'll go with I dont mind it cause its low limit game live. You have to fold the flop here, after given action.

     Let's say this is a 200nl game you play, Tony, and UTG is a 200nl reg, and you have like 2k hands on him and he's running like 18/14 @ FR and his winrate is like 3ppbt/100. Do you ever 3b here on the flop with same action? Let's say the donker is a fish/fishy.

9. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-04-22 01:47:05
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   • No thats why I said fold flop:)

10. • Posted by Svidri 2009-04-22 01:57:56
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    • UPS PWNAGE said:

      No thats why I said fold flop:)

      What I think I was trying to articulate: is there ever merit to 3bing here to get a solid player to fold some of his range. Or are you still thinking of the donker too? I'm obv lower skill/stake than you so appreciate your thoughts.

      Edit: I guess it would be better to 3b a lag now that I think of it (duh). So pretend it's a lag lol – is there still any merit?

11. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-04-22 02:01:55
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    • I think its a little bit too much of fancy play syndrome imo. If you make this move your kinda trying to outplay a reg, while forgeting you probably have a complete donk nut job behind you. You can wait for much better spots to pick up pots vs a reg. I tend to think hu in position and floating regs is way more plus ev than trying to squeeze them out after what seems to be iso reraises after donk bets and such. Even Lags. Lags wake up with hands too, especially paying attention to if the guy is just lag preflop. That gets a ton of players in trouble always thinking a guy who plays huge percentage of hands pre never has it after the flop.

12. • Posted by Svidri 2009-04-22 02:17:17
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    • UPS PWNAGE said:

      I think its a little bit too much of fancy play syndrome imo. If you make this move your kinda trying to outplay a reg, while forgeting you probably have a complete donk nut job behind you. You can wait for much better spots to pick up pots vs a reg. I tend to think hu in position and floating regs is way more plus ev than trying to squeeze them out after what seems to be iso reraises after donk bets and such. Even Lags. Lags wake up with hands too, especially paying attention to if the guy is just lag preflop. That gets a ton of players in trouble always thinking a guy who plays huge percentage of hands pre never has it after the flop.

      Makes sense enough... and it's basically a limped pot so no need to get fps right? Can understand what you said about possible action behind is smart.

13. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-04-22 02:26:16
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    • Yeah. The other thing about this hand is we are missing some stack sizes and a few ideas of images. That being said most of the people playing a 5-200 spread game aren't that deep compared to blinds anyway. I just cant play in these games. I hate the structure

14. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-04-22 02:35:27
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    • Darren said:

      
      Anyway, I told the two guys to my left what I folded and they looked at me like I was crazy for folding. I just replied with "I still have chips don't I? Besides, I had 3 guys acting behind me." They still thought I was crazy.

      This is how you know your in a great game lol

15. • Posted by Darren 2009-04-22 14:51:12
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    • Tony, the small and big blind in this hand had about $250 each pre-flop and the pot builder who originally bet out the $10 had maybe $200 (give or take $20), so when he re-popped the $20 raise with $80 on top, I didn't think he was bluffing at all and pegged him for queens or kings. Aces? nah, even though he said that's what he had after I asked if he had kings after the hand, I still didn't believe him as I had an ace and i'm pretty sure someone else had to have limped with an ace as well.

      So what I also left out of the info from earlier is that the same guy who took that pot ran into me at the cage where I was cashing in my chips and I hear "nice read". I turn around and it's that dude....I ask again, "kings?" He said, yep...with the king of spades.

      That made me feel much better.

      Anyway, I agree with you on the structure, but it's hard to find a good live cash game these days close to my home, and sitting at the 10/200 table, where everyone has close to a grand in chips...well let's just say that there are a couple REGS who play with one another. Which is complete BS so I don't play unless they aren't there. They always sit right next to eachother and who knows what goes on under the table. The are almost always there, so I just stick to the 5/200.

      Any recommendations as to where I can play a better structured cash game?

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