Interesting Hand

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1. • Posted by Mr. Segan 2009-09-17 19:36:25
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   • This happened at Huggins last night. Early in the tournament!

     George is under the gun and makes it 250 to go when the blinds are 50-100. One caller and I have JJ and I smooth call (maybe first mistake) and then another guy calls. So, 4 players on the flop.

     7, 6, 2 is the flop - rainbow

     George bets 700, the one guy calls. I have to make a decision, am I good here or not? So, I make a pot size bet - 2500. (Maybe second mistake). The guy on my left smooth calls and then George goes All In and the guy on my right also goes All In.

     What do I do? of course FOLD and the guy on my left also goes All In?

     George had AA
     Guy on my right had 6 7
     Guy on my left had 66

     How could this go any differently?

2. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-09-17 19:53:48
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   • Easy. George has aa kk qq jj ak here everytime. When he fires into that many calers he now has aa kk qq everytime and i mean everytime. You are set mining here if you call with jj vs ep raise from george I fold jj to georges flop bet

3. • Posted by Svidri 2009-09-17 21:14:37
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   • This could definitely be a 3-bet for value pre, but you elect not to. OK, that's fine, this is a tourney where you value your tourney life and don't want to bloat the pot with JJ. So, you need to ask yourself--

     "Where do I find value from just calling with JJ preflop vs an aggro UTG range + 2 callers?"

     Pretty much the answer is flopping a set, like Tony said. You didn't flop a set, did you?

     Edit: and it looks judging by results that your implied odds were huge... it's ok to check/fold when you make a good call for super-sized implied odds and then whiff.

4. • Posted by Svidri 2009-09-17 21:19:41
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   • UPS PWNAGE said:

     if you call with jj vs ep raise from george I fold jj to georges flop bet

     I think, Tony, you aren't highlighting the key point, which is that the pot is 4-ways. I mean, I've seen George open KTo UTG, so it's not like he has a really tight range from EP... obviously he c-bets his entire range on this board in a HU pot, so folding JJ would be a disaster in a HU pot.

5. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-09-17 23:19:22
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   • Svidri said:

     UPS PWNAGE said:

     if you call with jj vs ep raise from george I fold jj to georges flop bet

     
     I think, Tony, you aren't highlighting the key point, which is that the pot is 4-ways. I mean, I've seen George open KTo UTG, so it's not like he has a really tight range from EP... obviously he c-bets his entire range on this board in a HU pot, so folding JJ would be a disaster in a HU pot.

     Wow you have seen George open with k10 ep at a full handed table? Guess my read is off. Yeah the 4 handed was the key part just hurried my answer as usual.

6. • Posted by Svidri 2009-09-18 02:54:25
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   • I haven't played with George in a while, so his game may have changed... and he probably had a specific reason to play that hand that way at the time...

     But yeah as long as we are talking about George's game... I mean, it's not like he created this thread or anything... and I don't know what stack sizes were... but I am a little "confused" by that open PFR size... maybe Parag isn't remembering the bet sizing accurately...

7. • Posted by Jason M 2009-09-18 04:22:48
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   • AFAIK, George will open loose (any Tequila yet?), but not often UTG. And I'm pretty sure he'd fire a continuation into 3 others. However, after all the other action, you have to think you're crushed. I don't know if I'd flat on the flop, so I don't think you did that wrong. Jacks suck, especially when you don't know where they stand.

     I think I'd re-raise pre-flop. George will 4-bet with AA-QQ, I think, so you'll know where you're at and you won't be playing against 66 and 67. However, Svidri is right (keeping a pot small pre is good), but I'm not sure this is the right time. That is, of course, unless you are capable of check-folding JJ every time you miss the set, even if you make the "wrong" fold some of the time.

8. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-09-18 16:14:31
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   • This is the first level of the tourny at a full ring table and George doesn't have any "juice" in him. He has aa-qq ak 99.99 percent of the time here. Why else does Parag just call here? Reraising here with a 6g starting chip stack is the worst option out of the three, with calling the best, folding having no regard for implied odds(since George stacked off you have them here) and reraising the worst since you have to muck once George reraises you a very large portion of the time. Once George bets into that multi-way pot now Parag should have known he accomplished what he set out to do with the jj here which was flop a set vs what he obviously knows is the worst hand 80 percent of the time(remember the stage of the tourny we are at and Georges position). Parag missed so he shoulda just folded. If he is raising that flop he should be reraising pre flop here for value and isolation(which would of been the wrong play). This is the difference between tourny and cash which is a hard adjustment. On a side note Gordo discussed this hand with me before all these posts and I told him what George and Parag had just from hearing what the betting action was, and my first response was "what the hell is Parag doing raising George with jj when George is betting into a huge muti way pot out of position, cause now ak is out of his range, so this post has nothing to do with being results oriented if we are worried about that.

9. • Posted by Svidri 2009-09-18 16:57:34
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   • Tony, I think we are all on the same page. I did enjoy reading your more detailed analysis, and it's not really results oriented because it's such an obvious fold for both of us.

     I didn't really know the stacks were 6g, so 3-betting is probably bad now. But in a cash game, especially the ones I'm used to (ie 6 max), JJ is a clear 3-bet for value vs UTG assuming full stacks.

     My question for you would be-- pretend it's not a SNG. In a full ring context, how do you play JJ here vs George's UTG open from like MP or LP? I'm guessing from the SB and BB it's a clear flat call because you don't want to overrep your hand heads up and you can setmine multiway... but if I'm wrong, please comment on blind play vs UTG open here with JJ assuming a) squeeze opportunity and b) action folds to you.

10. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-09-18 17:52:41
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    • I think with a player with Georges range utg you should never be reraising with jj from any positon in a full ring game with about 100bb or less. I can see some merit in reraising a player like george here in a very deep bb full ring game since players with narrow ranges will smooth call 3 bets with -qq-ak in full ring and it would widen your 3 bet range to other players. Squeezing here in full ring is way out of the question unless now we are talking about George opening from mid late position. We cross hairs a lot and it tends to be about aggression and that stems from us playing in 2 completely different types of games, which in turn breeds different kinds of opponents. As far as 6 max yeah I think you are always reraising here from any position and folding to a 4 bet vs a player like George

11. • Posted by Jason M 2009-09-18 22:28:08
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    • First round is 50/100 with 6k to start? Damn!

12. • Posted by Mr. Segan 2009-09-19 00:12:24
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    • This was round 2.

      25-50 was the first round.

13. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-09-19 02:15:41
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    • After I heard Parag raised George on the flop I wanted to send him this :)

      

14. • Posted by Mr. Segan 2009-09-19 02:44:10
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    • UPS PWNAGE said:

      After I heard Parag raised George on the flop I wanted to send him this :)

      
      

      lol

15. • Posted by Tony Gags 2009-09-19 02:59:33
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    • HEHE :)

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