Tough Decision With Jacks
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- Posted by Jason M 2008-09-18 18:19:41
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Here's the situation:
45-person $24+6 Sit-N-Go on Full Tilt. It's the top 6 and 6 people get paid ($400, $270, $200, $140, $100, $60). The blinds are 200/400 and going up to 300/600 soon. I have been fairly active, stealing blinds and playing pots, because I have been on the short stack for most of the tournament. I move up to 4th in chips and and get my money in behind against a player with less chips. My pocket pair sucks out to his overpair (runner-runner straight lol) so now I am the chip leader with 17k in chips. At these blind levels one pot makes the difference between being short-stacked and the chip leader. Crazy.
Anyway, the very next hand I'm on the button and get dealt . Everybody folds and I raise it to 2000. This was more than what I had been raising in the past. My devious plan was to make it seem like the loose new chip leader is making a steal at the blinds. :p
I'm elated to see the 2nd chip leader (13k) raise me to 5000 from the big blind. It appears he has fallen into my trap, but if I get all my money in and lose, I'm down to 4k or so, which means I'm on my way out.
What should I do?
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- Posted by Bulldog88 2008-09-18 19:03:39
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J's is so hard to play. I think he has either AK or AQ. I would probably just call and see what's came on the board and make my next move.
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- Posted by Bhakti 2008-09-18 21:12:54
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post bubble, if you bet 2 and he made it 5, i would call the 3 more, then maybe get out on the flop if an over hits and he bets big.
i guess that's what bulldog said too...so what DID you do?
:-)
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- Posted by Graham 2008-09-18 21:32:59
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what's your position? first to act postflop, maybe call and bet out on a J-high flop. I guess I don't like 3-betting there, but I know I don't 3-bet enough. if you're last to act postflop, he gets another chance to bluff you, but you can also get away from it on an A-high board. I'm fine calling there. Lots of flops are good for you and he might just be playing you because you're 'crazy.' Seems good to reraise if you really think that's the case...
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- Posted by Jason M 2008-09-18 21:36:32
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He was playing from the BB and I raised out from the button when everybody folded ("stealing", remember), so he gets first action on the flop. If I call, the pot has ~11k in it and he is sitting on 8k while I have 12k.
Put the rest of that in your pipe and smoke it. Once I get a few more responses, I'll post a few of my questions and concerns and what actually went down.
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- Posted by WeezerMoo 2008-09-18 21:53:42
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JJ is a no brainer shove all-in at this point. Apparently EVERYONE is short stacked as the blinds are big compared to the average stack. Jason just sucked out and got chips that others think he didn't deserve. He's on the button and could be raising a ridiculously huge range. The guy with 13k probably knows all this and will reraise a ridiculously huge range. JJ is way ahead of that range so it's a super easy shove here. I'd make the shove 99% of the time.
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- Posted by uzjedi 2008-09-18 23:55:43
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Unless he is some kind of SUPER nit, I shove too. Your image is too loose and the average stack is too short.
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- Posted by Mr. Segan 2008-09-19 00:38:09
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Yeah, at that position, I say its a "Degree All-In Moment"
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- Posted by FREMONTkyle 2008-09-19 08:06:24
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the practical min raise is one of two things he has a huge hand is trying to milk some more chips out of you for his all in on the flop or hes trying to be super crafty and make you think he has a huge hand while leaving enough chips behind to shove on the floop regardless of what hits with your image i probablly re shove here only other thing you could do is flat call to see what his action on the flop is allowing you to get away from losing to A7 or so either way flat calling isnt too bad with the way your able to figure people out thus allowing you to get a lil more info and limit the variance just a bit because after all 300/600 with 12k isnt the end of the world im thinking with him being the second big stack he probablly has a premium starting hand and thinks hes milking you or else why would he play back at you and if it was a small PP or a weak hand most players esspesially online would just shove on you if they thought you were trying to steal.
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- Posted by Jason M 2008-09-22 06:40:53
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Thanks for the comments, everybody. So here's what happened...
When the guy raised me, I did figure him for a re-steal to my apparent steal. Had I not been involved in a lot of pots, I would not have given this much weight. Perhaps it was just wishful thinking.
I raised all in, he called, and he had . I went out in fifth place. Oops!
I think the shove is the right move, perhaps even without the table image I had. He gets first action on the flop. If I call, the pot has ~11k in it and he has 8k while I have 12k. He was definitely a good player, and I think most players will take the lead right there and shove on most flops, whether they hit or not.
That puts me in the position of potentially making a huge mistake. I can't fold whenever an ace, king, or queen comes. They won't have it every time. And I can't get a read of whether or not my opponent has two pair, a straight, or a flush. The bottom line is it is very hard to make the right play against a good aggressive opponent here. Therefore, get it in preflop. Or fold. :/
I know some of the more conservative players would disagree. I remind them that this was a $26 online tournament that I can enter any time of any day and not lose any sleep. I probably won't play as "recklessly" (even if it is correct in the long run) at a larger buy-in live game. Then again, there is more to study than betting patterns in those games...
Thoughts?
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- Posted by E 2008-09-24 01:21:54
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I wouldn't know how conservative people play, so I say going all-in
is the only thing to do.
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- Posted by Art 2008-10-02 20:47:53
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before i got to the result, I was thinking fold it.
reason being, its an ONLINE GAME.for some strange reason , karma of the poker gods really hits hard for online games right away.
I can't name how many times I gained the chip lead, get a monster hand preflop and get sucked out.
I'll get KK and get forced all in by a AA hand, or something similar to this kind of hand. This has happened too many times online for me to believe this is not fixed.
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- Posted by Luke 2008-10-07 22:30:28
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well if it was full tilt I would fold, poker stars no. sounds crazy but I think FT puts big hands against each other way too often. I could be wrong but whats weird is my account in pokerstars is padded with $$ from winning while my FT account has taken a beating ever since I withdrew money. I'm not completely convinced of thats its a set up but damn its weird. I'm done with full tilt.
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- Posted by Darren 2008-10-07 23:01:07
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Jason, right when you started this post and I read the first couple of people and their input, I realized the guy had to have you crushed. I know i just read this and it's too late, but I would have called the other 3 and saw the flop, making it easy for me to make my next decision/move and be able to allow myelf to get out early. I know it was a cheapie, but I've found myself pushing too many chips in before the flop and knowing deep down I was very likely beat at the time, that I never gave myself the outs to keep playing. So that's what I would have done.
On top of all this, I just found a pretty interesting (in my eyes, a pretty ahem"BS" story) but nonetheless, interesting enough...check it out for yourself and see what you think. I dare you to try and figure out the odds on that one!
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- Posted by Jason M 2008-10-08 00:16:30
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LOL, Darren, that bad beat is hard to believe. Quads losing to a Royal is like 1 in 2 billion. This?! One in 100 billion maybe?
I think I play that hand the same way again next time. Either that or fold preflop. I hate calling there. Will I fold if he bets unless I hit a J? Will I fold only if there is an overcard and he bets? Or will I continuation bet in either case, therefore pot-committing me? Does he really have me beat? Could he have TT or AK? I don't know! If I really want to win the tourney, I think I push it. If I want to move up a few spots, I fold. But calling just seems like such a bad idea... If there's really that good of a chance he's playing straight-up, I guess I fold preflop there.
Hey Luke, you should get some analysis done on your hand histories to see if anything out of the norm went down for you. I don't think Full Tilt would purposely put big hands against each other, and I'm pretty sure a ton of analysis on hands has been done to prove this, but I don't have any hard evidence of that. If you really think it happened, your hand histories could expose it!
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