PokerSoup Forums > Strategy > Crazy Flush Draw Hand at the Venetian

Crazy Flush Draw Hand at the Venetian

    • avatar for Jason M
    • I played a 4-hour session at the Venetian this last Saturday on the last night of my trip. I had built my stack up to around $800 at the $1/$2 table and had everybody at the table covered.

      I had a really solid image, so much that the players who were paying attention even stated it a few times, like when one guy laid down on a board because I re-raised pre-flop and bet 3/4 pot on the flop and turn. He said he thought I had aces. I had kings :)

      Anyway, 3 relatively new players sat down to my left and I was in the big blind. All three to my left limped, as well as somebody in middle position and the kings-folder who was on the button. I looked at and popped it up to $20. The standard raise was anywhere from $10-$20, so I expected a couple callers since I was in early position. It turned out that all three players to my left as well as the button wanted to see the flop, so there were 5 players with $100 in the pot.

      Here are the players, positions, and stacks to start the hand:

      • BB, $800 - raised to $20
      • UTG, $100 - limp-called
      • UTG+1, $530 - limp-called
      • UTG+2, $500 - limp-called
      • Button, $700 - limp-called

      The flop was

      What would you do with a solid image, the nut flush draw, and a bunch of seemingly weak players? I have to admit, I hadn't seen many hands with the 3 UTG players, but they evidently had limp-for-2-and-call-20 type of hands :)

      I'll post what I did and what happened after I get some traction here. Thanks!

    • avatar for Dave W
    • Nice scenario, If it was me ( ha! no way I would have $800 at a cash game ) I would bet 1/2 of the pot, be ready to re-pop. You would probably bring two with you to the turn. When a blank hits, I would lead out for $200 ( kinda value), if this doesn't win the pot., I would put it all in on the river. This is why I probably don't win in a cash game. ; )
      Sorry Jason I think I lost all your cash....

    • avatar for Teresa
    • If they're new... hell, I'd probably check, maybe check-raise. Cause if you bet then someone's gonna call you cause they don't really know you and you're just building the pot in case you hit your flush but you don't have to do that because on the turn they have odds to go all-in. idk.

    • avatar for Teresa
    • lol did someone have 67 of clubs... that'd be so sad

    • avatar for Craig
    • I'd bet $60-$80.
      I think Teresa's on to something. Straight flush coming?

    • avatar for Jason M
    • Damn it! I screwed up - there was no on the board => it was the four! Sorry :p

    • avatar for jomar
    • two of the players are going to call you no matter what you do. Ck and and call any small raises. hopefully you saw the turn. What happened?

    • avatar for Tony Gags
    • against weak players bet 60-80 here leaning towards 80 since you guys are so deep. re evaluate action. preflop. I usually dont like that big raise pre but looks like most are over 200 bb deep here, so its a good raise. Rest depends on your read of the players and the action. I hate a check cause now your hand is pretty much face up. If you check call it screams draw, and you have no clue where your at out position playing deep.. Only really have to worry about 99 and 88 raising flop here. What happened rest of hand? Definatly player specific if there was any action on the flop

    • avatar for Teresa
    • I wouldn't check-call cause that gives no information but I'd check-raise if there were any bets. If they check too than that's alright but I don't think that's what happened. Even though they didn't flop the straight flush I still think someone hit it eventually for some reason ahhaa

    • avatar for Svidri
    • Jason M said:

      I played a 4-hour session at the Venetian this last Saturday on the last night of my trip. I had built my stack up to around $800 at the $1/$2 table and had everybody at the table covered.

      I had a really solid image, so much that the players who were paying attention even stated it a few times, like when one guy laid down on a board because I re-raised pre-flop and bet 3/4 pot on the flop and turn. He said he thought I had aces. I had kings :)

      Anyway, 3 relatively new players sat down to my left and I was in the big blind. All three to my left limped, as well as somebody in middle position and the kings-folder who was on the button. I looked at and popped it up to $20. The standard raise was anywhere from $10-$20, so I expected a couple callers since I was in early position. It turned out that all three players to my left as well as the button wanted to see the flop, so there were 5 players with $100 in the pot.

      Here are the players, positions, and stacks to start the hand:
      * BB, $800 - raised to $20
      * UTG, $100 - limp-called
      * UTG+1, $530 - limp-called
      * UTG+2, $500 - limp-called
      * Button, $700 - limp-called

      The flop was

      What would you do with a solid image, the nut flush draw, and a bunch of seemingly weak players? I have to admit, I hadn't seen many hands with the 3 UTG players, but they evidently had limp-for-2-and-call-20 type of hands :)

      I'll post what I did and what happened after I get some traction here. Thanks!

      Arguments to NOT cbet: connected board (98), monotone board, OOP, and multiway pot. Also, this pot wasn't 3bet, so there isn't a ton of money in.

      Arguments to cbet: crickets chirp

      The stacks are far from short so you don't really want to jam flop, as you would in 40BB territory... your equity is decent to good in this hand against limp ranges... but their stacks are too big to play for stacks here. You need to check and evaluate.

    • avatar for Svidri
    • Sorry for the double post:

      Look at your equity against limp-callers ranges, which I think are { JJ-22, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T8s+, 95s+ }, because better hands 3Bet and other worse hands can find a fold, except player 5, which is a random hand, because "lol pot odds."

      Another club is a cooler and stops the action except against Kc, and a paired board on the 4th/5th street stops your action. So again, you have tons of equity but you need to c/r here imo because you Cbetting looks like a value bet and you are practically begging for worse hands to fold or bluff raise (does this even happen in 1-2nl?).

      So you check, and what happens next?

      --

      Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

      5,931,933 games 8.328 secs 712,287 games/sec

      Board: 9c 8c 4c
      Dead:

      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 38.357% 38.20% 00.16% 2265871 9541.92 { AcKd }
      Hand 1: 17.139% 16.80% 00.34% 996473 20275.58 { JJ-22, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T8s+, 95s+ }
      Hand 2: 17.129% 16.79% 00.34% 995923 20196.17 { JJ-22, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T8s+, 95s+ }
      Hand 3: 17.139% 16.80% 00.34% 996526 20245.75 { JJ-22, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T8s+, 95s+ }
      Hand 4: 10.235% 09.97% 00.26% 591632 15548.58 { random }

    • avatar for Tony Gags
    • wow your ranges are way too wide here, and there are plenty of worse/ drawing/ flip hands in a 1-2 game that are calling you here. That being said, looking at your pokerstove numbers I think your right with the check on flop evaluate, but I am gonna say it is a lot closer than your making it out to be. Close enough that a checked through flop is gonna hurt here

    • avatar for Tony Gags
    • Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

      16,164,026 games 40.102 secs 403,072 games/sec

      Board: 9c 8c 4c
      Dead:

      player 1 Ackd 44.691%

      ATs-A2s,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,ATo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo 13.829%

      ATs-A2s,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,ATo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo 13.829%

      ATs-A2s,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,ATo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo 13.826%

      ATs-A2s,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,ATo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo 13.828%

      Thats what I came up with Sividri. Seems a little closer no? oops forgot ppm 22-99 comes out to 42 percent

    • avatar for Svidri
    • Hey UPSPWNAGE,

      I believe your name is Tony, right? My mom Patti said you are a smart, thinking player and had many other nice things to say. I'm John :) nice to meet you.

      I think at 1-2 nl (edit: 1/2 LIVE, not online... where there are tons of regs and is not really soft at all), the skill is quite low and the ranges for limp-calling are quite huge, thus my crazy ranges. Especially since these people don't know how implied odds work. Whenever there is one caller, they go, "lol pot odds" and call-call-call-call behind with any remotely suited or connected cards, which is what I think may have happened here.

      That being said, I like your ranges just fine in a harder game, and we still have huge equity in this hand.

      However, the main point I'm trying to make is, when we cbet here all hands that beat us call or raise, and all hands that are behind fold, except hands holding Kc. Plus assuming a harder game (which I'm not) we don't really want to get bluff-raised here either by someone in position...

      So I think we both think the best move is check and see what happens, because in the end we are drawing OOP in a crazy multiway pot, and for other reasons as well.

    • avatar for Tony Gags
    • Hahaha this is true. I thought my ranges were really wide. I just don't play live enough anymore. Jason you gonna tell us what happened or can you give us more info on some of the players so me and Sividri can go into the supercomputer to see what the right play is lol